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Transcript
[Start Interview]
Vann: So please just go ahead and introduce yourself and you can share your name, how you would describe yourself, and any of the various identities that you may hold that you feel are important to share.
Stephan: So my name is Stephan. I identify as a transmasculine person. I use he/him pronouns, or they/them occasionally, and that’s just the basics.
Vann: Awesome! As with this interview, relating to pregnancy, parenthood, children, all that; how many children do you have?
Stephan: I have one.
Vann: Okay! So going into this experience of getting ready for the creation of your child, did you ever experience difficulties with insurance or coverage when seeking care related to the pregnancy?
Stephan: Actually, during the time of my partner and I at the time going through this, there was no coverage via insurance.
Vann: So, how did you manage to get this ball rolling?
Stephan: We paid for it.
Vann: All out of pocket?
Stephan: Yeah. So, he’s my biological son, right? I had to go through all the procedures and injections to produce eggs, and then my eggs were harvested and then we used a sperm donor that we paid for. And then basically the eggs were fertilized, and then the eggs after the fertilization— the embryos— were inserted into my partner.
Vann: So in terms of the healthcare you received during the process of you as well as your partner in terms of the pregnancy, did you have any difficulties in terms of finding people that would cover you? Like, was there ever an instance in which people were uncomfortable with your identity or with your partner or any of the process that may have been—yeah.
Stephan: Because the fact that she actually worked for Kaiser, a lot of the normal stuff is covered for like doctor visits and whatnot. It’s the infertility, when we started doing the infertility stuff through an outside source—because Kaiser didn’t cover it, right? No, we didn’t seem to have a problem as long as we had money. And like I said, insurance didn’t cover it back then.
Vann: Can I ask what year it was when you started this process?
Stephan: I was started in— I think it was ’99?
Vann: Okay, so that was what, twenty-three years ago?
Stephan: Right, so it was twenty-three year ago but my son was not born until 2002.
Vann: Oh, he’s younger than I am! Oh that’s so cool!
Stephan: He just turned twenty!
Vann: Oh that’s so exciting, oh my goodness.
Stephan: Because when you start the process, that doesn’t mean it works. For us, it was our second time.
Vann: So it took about three years, then, until he actually came in—
Stephan: From the start, right. Our harvesting the eggs and everything was easier. Getting the embryos going and then for my partner to carry it to term— because at the time she was already pre-menopausal at thirty-two, so that took a minute.
Vann: That makes sense. So how did you go about deciding how you’d deliver your child. Like, what factors and experiences influenced your decision on how you decided to go about the delivery process?
Stephan: For me, it was easy because I’ve always identified as male, so I knew that I didn’t want to have a baby or carry it myself. But I wanted a child of my own. And my partner always wanted to have a baby, but actually because of society saying “You can wait, you can wait,” come to find out when she was 35 she could not wait. She had already bypassed her time to have a child because she was pre-menopausal at thirty one.
Vann: So when you started making preparations for the actual delivery, did you know that you wanted to have a hospital birth, or did you want to have your child at home, or like— when thinking about when labor started, did you have a plan as to what you were going to be doing?
Stephan: Yeah, my partner wanted to give birth to him in a hospital because she was an older mother.
Vann: So she wanted to have, like, the hospital support if something—
Stephan: Right. Well once she gave birth, she was forty-one.
Vann: And your team when you were actually in the delivery room— was everyone pretty understanding, accepting? Was it like a shock to anyone; the whole process of—
Stephan: No, we had some great people that worked at the hospital that were in community, so that worked out pretty well considering, you know, we were in the emergency room because she did end up having an emergency cesarean, so—
Vann: Oh! Was that due to any complication or was that—
Stephan: We think it was because her body just didn’t get the gist that she was actually the one pregnant. They were trying to tweak the medication so she never actually dilated, but her water broke and she wasn’t even a centimeter, so they had to have an emergency cesarean.
Vann: Okay— and I’m assuming everything went smoothly with that?
Stephan: No, it didn’t.
Vann: Oh no.
Stephan: I mean I have a son and she’s still here, so yes.
Vann: In that sense.
Stephan: Yeah, no. I think that was my first panic attack as a new parent.
Vann: Oh.
Stephan: If you want more information, then I am more than happy to share, but it has nothing to do with the health or the medical—
Vann: That’s fair, that’s fair. As much as you’re willing to share, I am very interested in hearing more about the process because everyone has such a unique—
Stephan: Yeah, everybody does. It was nice that they allowed me to be there. So basically what happened was she went in for emergency cesarean. I was offered to go into the room with her which was great, you know? She started having convulsions because of the medicine, right? Because they only gave her from here down to numb her from the cesarean, so when they handed her the baby while she was all, you know, going through that— kinda graphic! Basically I got to get tagged and follow him to the nursery, and then they were just gonna close her up and I was supposed to meet her in recovery. So I took my son to get him tagged and make sure he was mine. And then they were like “Okay, we’re gonna take care of him now and you can meet your partner in recovery.” Well I went to recovery and they didn’t know who I was there for! So it’s like she didn’t even exist, I was, like, in a movie, in the Twilight Zone. So then I started having a panic— I started panicking like, “What do you mean? She should be here, I was gone half an hour!” And then her sister came in and she was like “Well, we’ll find out what’s going on.” Because I’m sitting here, I’ve been up for three days in the hospital, right? So I go back to the room that she was in, and the room is clean, and she’s gone. I go back to recovery, she’s gone. I don’t know what happened. She just disappeared in the hospital and nobody would tell me anything. So her sister finds out, because her sister, being family… Basically while they were stitching her up, they realized that she had still been bleeding internally. So they had to open her back up to fix it. And when they did so, they nicked her bowel, so they had to take her to another emergency, the actual OR, because for the emergency cesarean they’re just in a little room, right? With everything there. But then they had to take her to the actual OR. And then they fixed her, and then of course they found me and I found her. I thought I was gonna have a heart attack, but it turned out alright.
Vann: That sounds so scary! I am glad that—
Stephan: At the time!
Vann: Yeah. I’m glad that she’s ok in the end and I’m glad that your son was fine, but that’s definitely quite a traumatic experience of like, “Where is—”
Stephan: “Where is the mother of my child?”
Vann: Yeah! Where did she go? [Laughs] Oh my goodness. So when your son was actually born, were you able to be marked as his father on his birth certificate?
Stephan: No, because I didn’t present as male at the time. And they would not allow two female names on the birth certificate.
Vann: Oh, really?
Steph: So he’s listed as her being the mother, because she gave birth in the hospital and that’s what we agreed upon, too. Because if anything ever happened to him, then all they’d have to do is take his blood and he’s my match. Not her. So, that’s what we had worked out. And then the father on the thing is ‘Unknown.’
Vann: Oh?
Stephan: We don’t know his name, he’s the donor.
Vann: That makes sense.
Stephan: So now, though, now that he’s older— I haven’t talked to him about it, but I’m planning on it, because I’m gonna have him add me to his birth certificate as his legal father. Because I changed my birth certificate, all my documentation, and everything. So then I can actually get added, which is cheaper. I don’t think it’s fair that I have to pay to be added either as, you know, a adopted parent or added as a legal guardian, which you have to pay for unless you just have the birth certificate updated with the actual biological parent, which I am.
Vann: Which you are! Has that ever— and it’s okay you can share as much as you feel comfortable—
Stephan: No, go ahead.
Vann: Have you ever had issues with custody or, in any instance in which you had to prove that you are your child’s father? Has there ever been like an instance?
Stephan: [Shakes head no]
Vann: Ok, so you’ve been very lucky.
Stephan: Right, well— because I made the agreement that I would never— even though my partner, his mother, and I have separated when he was ten, we had always agreed— and I had always made an agreement that I would never ever take him from her. I made a promise, and I usually stick to that. So he still lives with her when comes back, because he’s in college. He’s grown up there the whole time, and I basically pay for the house they live in.
Vann: Do you get to see him often?
Stephan: I do! We usually game together as well. He taught me how to play the video games now. elle doesn’t like it.
Vann: Oh? What kind of games do you play together?
Stephan: We do Call of Duty: Black Ops
Vann: Ooo, okay! Primarily?
Stephan: Yeah, because I found that multiplayer games with him when he was younger, he used to sneak on the other team and I couldn’t figure out why I kept dying so easy or how people found me, because I’m trying to be good at it and trying to help him! He would be laughing next to me and I was like “What’s so funny?” And then I kinda caught it out of the corner of my eye one time, because I can’t multitask like him. And he’d be watching my screen and his screen and just, you know. Unfair.
Vann: What a brat! I cannot believe it. Turning on his own father like that!
Stephan: Well I thought it was funny! I thought it was funny! I can’t do that but— So I figured with zombies, then you have to play on a team, you can’t actually kill me.
Vann: That’s fair! That’s strategic thinking. That’s really interesting. My next question, a little bit of a jump—
Stephan: Go ahead!
Vann: If you’d be able to change anything in the medical system in order to help transmasculine people have children, or be able to be included within reproductive health care, what would it be?
Stephan: It would be to always add the biological parent to the birth certificate, no matter what gender they present as. It shouldn’t matter.
Vann: Yeah!
Stephan: And a lot of people these days can’t have their own, but still have the children. And why they can’t be listed still shouldn’t matter.
Vann: Yeah. I know especially in some states— there’s a lot of different rules in terms of when you are given the Live Birth Form, I believe it’s called, in a lot of states. When you start initially filling out, like, the names, there are some states that will have like ‘Parent One’ and ‘Parent Two,’ or like ‘Parent One (Dad)’ and ‘Parent Two (Mom),’ like that sort of thing. If you could make, like, an ideal sort of situation, do you feel like you would include gender at all? Or would it just be Part One, Parent Two? Would you even include Parent Three?
Stephan: Why is there only a one and a two? There should be spots available if the child has more than two! I mean some kids are brought in where they have two people identified as moms and two people that identify as fathers, or they have four people that are nonbinary that identify as the caregivers of that child. Right? Why take away the right to someone who wants to actually financially and be legally responsible for somebody, to take that away just because of their identity or their gender—
Vann: I definitely agree, I think that’s— I would consider it a bigger goal in terms of trans reproductive health. Especially— that’s the very first document you’re given when you have a child! That’s like, you know, that’s the proof of your parenthood in some— yeah. I see why it would be very important to some people especially.
Stephan: Also, I would change when you actually— when I gave my eggs and went through surgery, because they were actually going to my partner, they actually— the Reproductive Science Center— they actually require that I sign my legal rights away to my own eggs to give it to another female-bodied person.
Vann: Are you serious?
Stephan: Mhm. Or they did. This was twenty-three years ago, I don’t know if they do it now.
Vann: Okay. That’s the one in California, correct?
Stephan: Mhm. But the funny thing is even though I did that, they gave me a letter stating that I went through surgery; these are my eggs that were harvested and now I’m having a child, so I could get my family leave back from my company. But because we’re in California, they were nice enough to give me that actual leave off as well.
Vann: So you were able to have paid time off once your child was born?
Stephan: Mhm.
Vann: Oh! Do you remember how long you were given to spend time with him?
Stephan: Because of my title, I think it was a month.
Vann: Oh.
Stephan: His mother actually took four months off.
Vann: Oh. Do you wish that you had had more time in the beginning with him, looking back, or?
Stephan: Well there was nothing more that I could do because I wasn’t breastfeeding. I mean, I think that for me, I automatically connected what they thought; that I wouldn’t be because I wasn’t growing him, right? But it was harder for my partner because knowing that even though he is growing in her, it’s not her. So that always affected her the whole time. And sometimes even until this day, because you look at him and he looks dead-on like me. It’s still hard for her.
Vann: That makes sense. I mean, that’s definitely a heavy—
Stephan: She knows, he is definitely hers. He is definitely a mama’s boy.
Vann: And I mean, like you said: you don’t have to be biologically related to your child to be a parent. To really want to take care of them and show up for them, and that definitely shows.
Stephan: Yeah.
Vann: Yeah. I wanted to connect— I’m gonna jump around a little in my questions— but you did bring up chestfeeding, so I was interested; how did you navigate the decision to chestfeed or not to chestfeed, or to bottle feed, or what did you end up doing?
Stephan: Well, for us, I personally could not do it. My body wasn’t producing any since I wasn’t pregnant. I guess if I really wanted to pay more money to inject myself with hormones to make my body think I was, then yes, I could have. That’s just not something I wanted to do. For her, though, she wanted to drastically, but for some reason her body also did not. So he was bottle fed.
Vann: Were you able to bottle feed as well, was that a joint effort between the two of you?
Stephan: Yeah, it was all joint. She was home mostly with him until she went back to work, and then because of my career I spent a lot of time with him. I was lucky enough that even when he started going to school, I actually volunteered almost all day in his classroom the first two years of school.
Vann: That’s very special! I remember my mom would volunteer young, especially like in kindergarten- first grade. That’s such a fun age to be with, especially in school. You get to really see their growth from the beginning.
Stephan: Right, and plus not only that, schools have less people in the classroom paid that help younger kids because the ratio is smaller, so they don’t need aids like they do in the second, third, and fourth grade. So it’s left up to the parents, and I just happened to own my own business so that I could actually schedule around his school. So I mean the teacher would love me, because I helped with all of the kids and the donations of books and crayons and stuff like that.
Vann: So you’ve always been very involved then, it sounds like. That does— I love this cause you’re kind of like, leading me right into other questions I’ve already had, so this is great! So how did people within your life react when you shared you were in the process of becoming pregnant, when you were pregnant, when you already had your child? How did you navigate coming out to the people in your life, but also your child’s life, like at school and within your child’s friend’s parents group, you know? Like how did the coming out process or the disclosure of being your child’s parent— How did you navigate?
Stephan: Right, so for us, we actually didn’t get the chance to navigate because the place where we grew up, or where he grew up, it was not a safe space. He was picked on and bullied all throughout his elementary and junior high school because of him being the smallest kid supposedly. We didn’t know. We both would go pick him up and kids would tease him. We don’t know why, but he did start kindergarten early, so he was only four. Because preschool said “You’re bored, you should take him.” But I’m like, “He’s a boy and they’re saying we should start him late.” So he’s always been the little guy, because most of the boys in his class were two years older, because he started younger. So it’s been pretty hard because a lot of people are like “Boys will be boys,” which is not right. Basically we ended up moving him through more than three or four schools because the schools did nothing, right? So major example: two mom family— presenting two mom family at the time— he was in Junior High, he was in a woodshop class, and the TAs mind you, which are teacher’s assistants, helped coax one of the boys to hold my son so somebody else could pull his pants down, which is considered sexual assault because you’re removing my son’s clothes in his classroom in front of all of the other students. Which even the principal tried to say “Boys will be boys” and I said “Well, we’re not gonna have that.” So I said “What’s happening to the teacher’s assistants?” And they said they were going to let them be teacher’s assistants still, and I’m like “Wait. They’re from higher grades, helping lower grades and you’re allowing this?” Right? Right, so that was— well, it’s been a poop of a show basically. So he’s been through a lot, and we’ve always supported him, his mother and I, to let him know it’s actually not ok. So yeah. But I always hated moving him because it was making me feel like I was saying that “We’re moving you because you’re the problem,” but when in fact, the school should be supporting. Doesn’t matter what kind of family. Should be supporting the actual person that’s having it done to, instead of making the victim take the blame. So, it’s always been a battle.
Vann: I don’t know how you got through that. I don’t know what would have stopped me from going and yelling at these children who are obviously not being reprimanded or— I just, I feel so bad that you didn’t have justice. You deserved to have justice.
Stephan: Well I mean, I was smart. Because I knew I was emotionally involved in those situations, at the time, even though his mother and I weren’t together, his mother and I plus the person I was seeing at the time— who is a dean at another school, and is the Dean of Math and Science and is a Physics major— I had her go with us to speak up at another school because she works at a prominent private school and put the hammer down. Because I was just— I would just want to like— you know! I was too emotional to actually be talking properly in a school setting. It makes it hard, right? When you’re trying to protect your child. Especially with someone you worked so hard to bring into this world.
Vann: I want to step back a little bit. And I love what you shared with me about your school experience, but I did want to hear about when you were in the process of becoming pregnant. Were you able to come out to the people in your life about that, or was it kind of already common knowledge? Or like, did your family all know that you were seeking to become pregnant and that you were having a child?
Stephan: Right, right. So we did come out to both of our families. I think her family was a little bit harder for her, because of not really being out a lot and all of a sudden wanting to have a child. And then, basically, the friends we had were like “That’s great, that’s great,” but of course once the baby showed up then, it was just— everybody was gone. ‘Cause it was a different time back then, right? So, not a lot of people I knew actually ended up having children or wanting to be a parent. It was weird. All the friends you go out with and hang out with and do certain things with, right— but none of them having children or even thinking they’re capable of doing it or they want to do that at the time. But we were always older than most of our friends, ‘cause I was in my mid to late thirties when my son was born, and my partner was in her early forties. People weren’t doing what we were doing. It was a little hard.
Vann: And you mentioned at the time you were female-presenting, correct? Did you identify as transmasculine during that time, or did that kinda come about later?
Stephan: I’ve never identified as female. Ever.
Vann: Okay.
Stephan: The new terminology of trans was new to me, because I had never heard it until I was in my early thirties. But then also, trying to present as I felt was hard even to his mother because everybody told me, “Oh, you should look like this, or you should do this for them, or you should do that for them,” and I got to a point where I couldn’t do that anymore.
Vann: So, was there ever a time in which you had to come out to your partner or your son about wanting— cause I imagine you said that you appeared feminine during the time and obviously you don’t look that way now.
Stephan: Right, [laughs] the thing about it— I never appeared feminine at all.
Vann: Okay.
Stephan: So for my son— no. I mean, I just said “Hey. I’m going to the doctor. Just so you know, my voice might be changing, I’m gonna grow some hair probably, lose some hair probably. And this is me.” Because he was already like ten/eleven, so he was fine. And then his mother, I had always told since we’d been dating. She just kept talking me into “Oh, he’s only one— wait. Oh, he’s only two— wait. Oh, wait wait wait.” And I’m like… “I don’t wanna wait. I need to do this for me.” Even when I was twelve years old, I actually told my mother that there was something wrong with me— because you know, I liked girls and I didn’t think I was a girl. And she goes “Oh, that’s okay. As long as you’re happy. You’ll be as you’ll be.” And I’m like “Okay!”
Vann: So your mother’s always been very supportive?
Stephan: [Nods head yes]
Vann: And is she present in your son’s life?
Stephan: When she’s in the States, yes.
Vann: Is she out of the country?
Stephan: Yeah, she lives in Mexico.
Vann: Oh wow, oh my goodness! Do you—
Stephan: Retired military.
Vann: Okay, do you get to visit her in Mexico as well?
Stephan: I do sometimes, and right now I’m actually helping her if I wasn’t moving. She’s redoing her house in Antioch.
Vann: Oh! Also in Antioch, she lives in Mexico and has a house—
Stephan: She has two houses, yes.
Vann: Okay! Fancy! That’s really cool though, I’m glad that, like, she’s present though and that she’s able to visit and you’re able to visit her and have that connection. That’s very important.
Stephan: Especially that I have her only grandchild!
Vann: Yeah exactly! [Laughs]
Stephan: Just one! Sorry mom, that’s all you got!
Vann: Does she have other grandchildren besides him or?
Stephan: I have a brother, but he has no children. And we did try more times, but it just didn’t work out.
Vann: That makes sense. Well, um, I think I’m going to go into a little unrelated question. But I wanted to hear about the experience of raising your child. In terms of, like, how did you navigate gender and gender roles within your family? How did you explain or teach gender to your son? Or was it just kind of, like— more passive thing? Like, did you ever have to directly explain or give advice about gender? Or has it just always been kind of a background thing in your family?
Stephan: It’s been kind of in the background. It’s been passive, but also, I mean, there have been a couple of times that conversations come up. Right? That I’ve always asked him “How are you feeling today?” and talking about gender, “Do you know how you identify?” And my answer I’ve got from him was “I don’t know yet.” So. So it’s always been an open household. “Are you interested in boys, are you interested in girls, are you interested in everybody?” You know? It’s always been open, even regarding him going through puberty, or different things, I’ve always talked to him about it.
Vann: And, in terms of like when he was born— I’ve heard different things from different people within the trans community in terms of raising your child with the gender that they were born with. Was that ever a thought in your head in terms of, like, “Do I want to try to openly defy the gender binary in raising my child? Do I want to dress him up in clothes that present masculine or feminine, or was that like— were those thoughts ever going through your head? Or was it more like “This is a baby, I’m gonna dress it and feed it, and we’re just gonna see what goes on down the line.”
Stephan: Right. Yeah, for me, it was basically neutral. Right? So, I like pastels. I look good in pink. My son loves the color pink, but he can choose whatever he wants to wear. Right? So just, growing up as a child, I mean, he was liking greens. Yellows. You know, oranges. Whatever. Whatever. And then when he got old enough, he could pick what he wanted to wear, and a lot of the times he always wanted to wear pink. Pink it is, because it brings out the color in his eyes and his hair. I mean, so we didn’t put a standard on what he wanted to wear. When we went shopping, we let him choose, like “Oh do you like this? We can get this. If you like that, you can get that. It’s totally up to you.” Right? Now, how they treated him at school because— that was a different story. Because, you know, everybody thinks boys shouldn’t wear pink. Even though boys look really good in pink!
Vann: No, I agree one hundred percent! I don’t get what the masculine fear of pink is. I have a very pink room, I’m a very pink person. And when guys are put off by it, I’m like, “It’s a color! Are y’all scared of a color?” Is that—
Stephan: Right. Well, technically if you really think about it, pink is not a feminine color. Pink is actually a masculine color.
Vann: Give me more details, let me hear your logic.
Stephan: Because, I mean, everything of power, to me, is pink, right? Because blue is cold, that’s not a power color. But pink brings warmth. Warm is hot, is fire, temperatures. I mean, anything that creates, even on earth— even the womb— is pink. Which has always been powerful. I think, to me, I don’t even know if I’d call it masculine or feminine. It’s just, not a weak color. But a lot of people have problems with their masculinity, thinking it is. But it isn’t.
Vann: I like that connection to the womb and power. I think that’s a very interesting connection that not a lot of people would necessarily make. But I see where you’re coming from, and I agree with that. I do feel like it is a very powerful— yeah!
Stephan: Right? Like who put the definition on color?
Vann: Some white people, probably like a couple hundred years ago. [Laughs]
Stephan: Even though, back then there probably wasn’t anything called pink. You get some red and you mix it with a little white. So, but, is red masculine? And so is white? So why is pink not?
Vann: These are the points! I’m an art history major as well, so I feel like maybe I can write a paper on this, and I’ll circle back.
Stephan: Think about it though, right? If you take red, a good red, as masculine, because it’s a primary. And white is kind of a neutral, but it could be also considered a masculine color. So what makes it not masculine when you put them together?
Vann: I agree! Like I said I’m gonna write this paper and then I’m gonna get back to you on it. We’re gonna circle back!
Stephan: [Laughs] I have a weird thinking process, so—
Vann: No! I like the connections you make, and I’ve heard the reference of white being associated with masculinity before and I think it’s interesting to consider where these ideas came from. Because it’s definitely symbolism. I’s definitely connected to some sort of symbolic thing.
Stephan: Right. I choose not to think that that’s masculine or feminine. A color—
Vann: That’s fair. I think just as colors exist naturally, they probably all are just neutral. It’s just us that assigns value and traits. But, yeah. I’m gonna go ahead, this is my last question for the interview! And I wanted to end this on a happy note, ‘cause I know that some of these topics can be kind of hard. But, what is the best thing about being a parent for you?
Stephan: I have a son! [Laughs] I mean, I worked hard. I used to tease people, cause they wouldn’t believe when I’d go, “That’s my $50,000 baby!” I worked hard for that little man! Right? Maybe not in the same way a lot of other people do, but, I definitely worked hard for him. Yeah, no, it was a lot of work. It’s always gonna be a lot of work, even though he’s an adult, it’s still a lot of work. And I love him. I mean that’s the best thing about it. And one day I will be on his birth certificate. [Laughs] One day! We’re gonna get there! Because think about it. Even right now, with me not being on his birth certificate, if something happened to me, he could not even come legally and say that “Oh, that’s my dad. He doesn’t want that,” or “I know his last will,” or whatever, you know? Because he’s nowhere on any documentation for me. Which is sad. Or if something happened to him in a hospital, and I had to go in there because something happened to his mother, I am not on anything to actually say, you know, “I know what he wants. Yes, take care of him. I’ll pay for it. Do it.” Right? I have no legal rights to him at all, and he’s mine. And I’ve always been in his life since he was born.
Vann: Thank you so much for sharing that. You are a very powerful speaker, you give me, like, goosebumps as you’re talking! [Laughs]
Stephan: There’s so many different ways right? Even though you’re talking about masculine— transmasculine actually having the baby. There’s a whole different side that a lot of people forget about. What about the ones that can’t actually carry their own children?
Vann: And to some degree, I still feel like you don’t necessarily have to be the gestating parent to be carrying this pregnancy. I mean, there’s the emotional aspect, there’s the connection. And I feel like it’s a lot more than just necessarily like, “There’s a transmasc person that is pregnant.” It’s all of these things that go into it. Because what is family? And what is parenthood? And like, why are we defining these things biologically. Why— especially when trans people aren’t always the most biological essentialist people to start with, right? So, I really do wanna hope to expand this project to help people that aren’t just transmasc and having a physical gestation. But you know, like you! Like you are obviously the father, and you are a big part of this child’s life, and that’s just so important. And it’s frustrating that there are so many legal systems and social systems that have caused harm to you and your family. And that— [sighs] that gets me riled up!
Stephan: They say it’s about having a two parent family, but yet you’re not even allowing that to happen. Makes no sense. None. And I always believe that it takes a village. But when you can’t even allow two people to be together, you’re already starting the foundation without the village. Makes no sense.
Vann: Okay, oh my goodness, I could probably talk to you all night long. This is very great input. And I really appreciate just hearing about your life and your perspective. I feel like it’s very valuable and I really hope that when people watch this, they’ll be able to see that. So, thank you. Before we head out, is there anything else that you had thoughts on that you’d like to share with me? Any like, fun stories or like, any little last minutes?
Stephan: All my stories are still to come. They just add up and add up. Right?
Vann: That’d be fun to do a follow up!
Stephan: Right? The great thing I can say though about transmasculine or even nonbinary, or any different non-standard parenting, is that we know how important it is. Right? So even for everybody else in the community that’s not as old, we always put ’em under our wing and go, “No no. I got you.” Right? I can be that parent.
Vann: Can you adopt me? [Laughs]
Stephan: I have a lot! I mean, there’s so many people I take care of. And they’re like, “Why are you letting me use your car?” And I’m like, “Well I have a spare. You don’t have one. You need to go do whatever. Take care of yourself, of course.” Why wouldn’t I, you know? One guy considered that the uncle, the friendly uncle or the big brother. [Laughs] So, I don’t know. Communal houses are what I used to live in, and I felt like all of my little ones— because I’ve always been the oldest, you know? Because I’m in my mid-fifties now, and I have a twenty-year-old.
Vann: How does it feel to be a trans elder? I mean, it’s definitely something I think about.
Stephan: [Unintelligible]
Vann: What was that?
Stephan: I’m a trans elder?
Vann: I— okay well like, in terms of like, trans—
Stephan: I may be older than some! I’m still young and popping!
Vann: You are, you are. I’m just saying in terms of trans people. There’s not a lot of us over thirty. There is, but they’re kinda—
Stephan: There is!
Vann: They’re not out there.
Stephan: There are people that you would never know, right? ‘Cause of all of the stuff that we’ve been through, it’s easier to not be out. But it’s getting better, but, you know. We help change—
Vann: Do you see that like— for example; nowadays, your son’s twenty and in college, does he still have any issues in school? Is he out to other people in terms of who his parents are? Or is it just kind of like a thing he doesn’t really feel the need to talk about?
Stephan: I don’t think he is, actually. And I’ve always told him that it’s okay. If he trusts his friends, and really trusts ’em, then it’s okay to share my life experience, right? But he has to trust ’em, and he has to know that even if he trusts them, he might not get the response he thinks he’s gonna get, and he might not have those friends, or they might just be total— mean to him after the fact. So it’s totally up to him. Totally up to him. They just know me as his father, because now he’s in college and I transitioned years ago. So, the newer people know me like this.
Vann: Yeah. There’s definitely that aspect of the— I guess I wanna say stealth, or like, not being able to be identified as trans necessarily from an outside perspective.
Stephan: Right.
Vann: Do you know—
Stephan: I heard they do though, because sometimes I am very confident in, and okay with my feminine side. And even sometimes when I go out with him and his friends, I might have that “Oh my god!” Right? And that feminine side might come out, and I’m okay with it. He might look at me like, [makes a suspicious looking face] “Okay.” I’m like, “Come on, I’m fun! Who cares?” Right? There’s nothing wrong with it, that’s me! Everybody has feminine and masculine. Both. No matter what they say. I can always see it, and I’m like. “Pff.” Right? I think he’s okay with it. We need to have some more talks about it. He’s been away for school for a couple years, and we’ll see.
Vann: Well I hope I get to meet him someday, maybe when I come visit you and elle, and we have our little lunch together, maybe that’d be fun. I’d love to get to meet the whole gang.
Stephan: Yeah, yeah. This is a nice little place. Yeah, he’s supposed to be back for winter break, which is nice.
Vann: Okay! Does he ever get to stay with you at your house? Or does he always go back to his mom’s?
Stephan: No, he goes to mom’s. But last time he came up, we got a blow-up bed and he did stay with us a couple days. So that’ll be nice. Just driving to go pick him up, and driving to go back. ‘Cause he’s never been on an airplane.
Vann: Oh! Is his college far?
Stephan: Irvine.
Vann: Oh. Okay, yeah.
Stephan: It’s not very like— it’s like six and a half hour drive. But, he is on the spectrum, so sounds and stuff.
Vann: I definitely understand
Stephan: I totally get— I will pay to have him fly, and then he didn’t wanna come up here. But if I drive down there, then he’ll come up. Or sometimes for his birthday, I just drove down there and spent a couple weeks with him because I worked remotely. So I just hung out with him for a couple weeks while I worked from his house.
Vann: Aw! Does he have a home that he lives in?
Stephan: He actually, four—three other students from his high school all got into the same college. Two of them are twins, and then the third boy is the twins’ cousin, so it’s a family and then my son ‘cause they’re all friends. So he’s learning how to cook with them because they’re all Filipinos so he’s getting really good. Doesn’t know how to cook. Doesn’t know how to take care of himself very well, cause his mom’s like “He’ll only be five once. He’ll only be ten once. He’ll only be eleven once,” and I’m like, “He has to learn how to do laundry. He has to learn how to clean up. He has to learn how to do dishes. When are we gonna teach him how to cook?” Cause I baked! And cooked! “Oh no, he’s only gonna be this age,” so it’s— so, he’s a total mama’s boy. She’s always taken care of him. Which is fine! I mean, it’s her only child, I understand. But now like, “Alright young man. You’re gonna learn how to do your laundry. We’re gonna turn everything pink!” I did! First time I ever did my laundry.
Vann: Wait, you did?
Stephan: Well because, when I grew up, my mother was in the military and my grandparents raised me. And grandma took care of everything. That’s why I knew I didn’t want to do that to my boy, because I wanted him to know how to do things. When I grew up too, it was always about fixing and reusing. My grandfather fixed everything, right? So I know, I became a mechanic. I fixed everything. Something happens, elle would be like, “It’s broken. Just toss it, get a new one.” No! I can fix it.
Vann: Oh my gosh
[End Interview]