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Transcript
[Start Interview]
Vann: Please introduce yourself! What’s your name? And go ahead and share any identities you would like to disclose with me if you’d prefer.
Trystan: Sure! My name is Trystan Reese. I just turned forty years old, and I am a white, gay, transgender man living in Portland, Oregon.
Vann: Awesome, so how many children do you have at the moment?
Trystan: Three!
Vann: Oo, the terrible threes, oh yes. Are they a handful?
Trystan: We’re outnumbered, basically, that’s the problem. There always needs to be one adult per child, and that is not the case any longer.
Vann: Not the case. Do you ever have to recruit friends or anyone to help wrangle them?
Trystan: All the time, yeah.
Vann: I can imagine. Sorry this is my first interview, I’m a little bit nervous!
Trystan: You’re fine! Just take a breath. [takes deep breath]
Vann: Thank you. [takes breath] [laughs]
Trystan: Stakes are very low, you can edit this however you want.
Vann: Alright, thank you. I appreciate you. This is why I’m glad you are the first interview. I was like, “Oh, I know Trystan, it’s going to be fine!” But still. [laughs]
Trystan: Yeah!
Vann: But okay! So, did you ever experience difficulties with insurance or coverage in seeking care related to your pregnancy?
Trystan: Nope! I have Kaiser and when I registered for Kaiser through my partner’s insurance, I actually knew that we we’re gonna be trying. And so I actually signed up for Kaiser with the legal sex ‘Female.’ Which, they never double-check or anything. You just sign up for insurance and you give your name, your social, sex, blah blah blah. So I just put my sex as ‘Female,’ knowing that that would probably mean that I would get misgendered on the phone. So, if I call to make an appointment, they pull up my account, they see ‘Sex: Female,’ they treat you accordingly. But I weighed the negative impact of being misgendered against the possibility that some of my care might not get covered. And technically, it’s illegal for them to deny care based on either legal sex or what they consider ‘medical sex,’ but just because something’s illegal doesn’t mean it never happens. And so I felt like if I have to pick a fight, I would rather correct someone on my pronoun on the phone than have to escalate a concern about a $20,000 medical bill. That’s what I had to pay.
Vann: That makes sense, but when going to the doctor in person, did you ever have issues with being misgendered? Or was it mainly over the phone?
Trystan: No, I mean, they actually did a pretty good job I think on the phone and in person. Largely because very early on in the process, I told the person on the phone, you know, “Can you please flag on my chart that I’m transgender?” and that way there isn’t anybody who’s surprised when they hear my voice on the phone or see me in the office. And she said, “Well, that’s against our policy, because most trans people don’t want every provider to know they’re trans.” And I was like, “Well, you have to pay attention to the spirit of the policy.” Right? The spirit of the policy is that we treat trans people the way that they want to be treated when we’re giving them medical care, and not the letter of the policy which is like, “Don’t identify someone as trans.” So if the spirit is, “Treat me the way I want to be treated,” and I’m telling you “This is how I want to be treated,” then like… can you do that please? And she was like, “Okay, well, you know I can, it’s just not what we usually do.” And I was like, “Okay, well break protocol! I don’t care.” You know? And so I think anytime someone brought up my chart, they saw that I was a transgender man and so they adjusted accordingly, so that was helpful. Not to say that there was no awkwardness— there is. But, I know you’re gonna ask that question in a minute. [laughs]
Vann: Okay! How did you decide to deliver your children, and what factors and experiences influenced your decision on how you went about delivery?
Trystan: Yeah so, two of my children I did not give birth to, they’re adopted. So my one child that I did give birth to, I was one hundred percent certain that I wanted to give birth in a hospital. If it had been up to me, I would have been in a hospital for the entire week leading up to the birth. My mom had a really traumatic first birth experience with my older sister, and for me the best way that I can ensure a positive outcome— which, for me was that my child would be born and stay alive, and that I would make it through labor and with as little pain as possible also still alive— that was my goal. And so being close to an operating room if I needed it was really, really important to me. And again, just weighing what are the costs and benefits. For me, the costs of like, maybe a nurse will call me the wrong pronoun, or, like, maybe the doctor won’t know what name to call me, I just weighed that against what I perceived as my own medical safety, and I gave birth in a hospital.
Vann: That’s so fair. Did you have a really good team? Did you know the people throughout the whole process? Or when you went to the delivery room, was that the first time you’d met the doctor?
Trystan: Yes I had a good team. No, I had not met them before. I had toured one hospital at Kaiser and I met the people and I did all the education stuff, like, “I’m trans” and blah blah blah. And then that morning when the doctor called in to admit me to be induced, that hospital was like, “Oh, we’re full. Maybe you can try again tomorrow.” But at that point I was exactly at my due date, and I had been begging to be induced for about two weeks because I had rib separation. The fetus was so big that he was splintering my ribs from the inside. That can happen—
Vann: Oh, wow!
Trystan: Which I did not know. It was very, very painful. And so I cried to the lady on the phone, and I was just, “I’m in a lot of pain.” And she was like, “Okay, well, maybe the westside Kaiser can take you.” And I was like, “Would you try?” She was like, “Yes, I’ll call you back,” and then she called me back like, “Yeah, they are new and they have lots of beds. You’ll go there.” So again, it was like, cost benefit. Wait another day, maybe more? Or go to a place where I had to take the risk of I don’t know them, I haven’t gotten a chance to do the getting to know you and, you know, convincing them that I’m someone they want to advocate for as a patient, so I had to do that really fast on the phone. I called the head nurse at the labor and delivery department and just told them, “Hey, I’m gonna be in your hospital in an hour to be induced. I’m a transgender man, I really want to put you in charge of making sure everyone treats me respectfully. Is that something you can do?” and she was like, “Yes, we had a transgender staff member a couple years ago, and I know exactly which midwife to assign to you. She’s the one that helped me when I was giving birth.” So yeah, she was really good about that. So yeah! Good team, but I had not met them before.
Vann: That’s so great. I’ve definitely heard of experiences where people didn’t have that same care and respect in the delivery room and that can be very traumatic. That must be very scary to go into someone new’s hands.
Trystan: Yeah, well, I mean, it is and it isn’t. You know, I’ve had a lot of opportunities to heal from the medical trauma I’ve experienced in my life, and that’s a real privilege. And I also have the personal capacity to call ahead and say, “Here’s what to expect, and here’s what I expect from you. Can you do that?” You know? And I think that not everyone has that ability. No one should have to have that ability, like, let’s be clear. But not everyone feels comfortable calling a stranger on the phone and being really specific about what is gonna make a good experience for them. Yeah, and my dad came down from Canada, he was a physician before he retired, and that was also part of my calculus. You know, number one, I know he really wanted to be there ’cause he’s been there for all of the births of the children in our family. But also, I think that it might be helpful for me to have an old, straight, white doctor there, whose job was to make sure that I didn’t get fucked with. So, yeah.
Vann: He’s your personal bodyguard!
Trystan: He was. Well, it was funny ’cause often I do a lot of work with birthing professionals, and they’re like, “Oh, did you have a doula?” and I was like, “You know, in a weird way, my dad was my doula!” [Laughs] You know? I didn’t actually need him that much, everything went fine, but just to have someone there that I knew. And he was very good at telling them, “No, you haven’t checked the blood sugar in a little while, I think it’s important for you to check that.” You know, or like, “Hey, I notice it’s been two hours since the last pain medication, when are you thinking about administering the next round of that?” He did keep track of that, which I appreciated.
Vann: That’s a great advocate, I’m glad you had him there with you.
Trystan: Yeah.
Vann: Very sweet. I love to hear it. Okay so, were you able to be marked as your children’s father on their birth certificate?
Trystan: Yeah, so in Oregon, after you give birth, the midwife on record— like the head person who’s in charge— is the one who orders the birth certificate. So you fill out this special form, and you just check, like, do you want a ‘Mother/Father’ one, or do you want a ‘Parent One/Parent Two’ one? So we checked the ‘Parent One/Parent Two.’ And then you know, the box says like, ‘Parent One/Mother Information,’ and ‘Parent Two/Father,’ and then depending on what you checked, that’s how it gets marked. But again, my partner and I are very skeptical of systems working the way they’re supposed to, and the parent thing— like that’s a hack. You’re hacking the default, so they’re gonna make a mistake, they’re gonna go to the default. So my partner, who is not the birthing parent, put themselves down as ‘Mother,’ and me down as— like ‘Mother/Parent One’ was my partner, ‘Father/Parent Two’ was me. And that way if there was a mistake and it showed up as ‘Mother/Father,’ my partner, who is not the birthing parent, can easily go in and be like, “Well this is a mistake, I’m not a mother. I’m legally male, I’m not trans,” and it would be easier to fix it. So that’s always the calculus that we are doing there. And there is a transwoman in Oregon where her wife gave birth, and then she’s a transwoman, but it was her sperm that was used for the baby. And they used the ‘Parent One/Parent Two’ form, but it came back ‘Parent One/Father,’ and her name. And then ‘Parent Two’ was her wife. And that’s like— you have to go out of your way to do that! Like that’s not standard at all!
Vann: No, that’s just transphobic!
Trystan: It’s just like, straight up transphobia. So but then like, who do you talk to about that? Like, you know, the systems are complicated. But when the birth certificate came, it looked the way we wanted it to. So, whew! And again, here in Oregon we have such a strong state-wide organization to close all of those gaps, and I know if something had gotten messed up, I could have called someone there and they would have been like, “Okay, so that’s Stacy. I’ll call her, she’s in Salem.” I mean, they would know who it was. So again, an incredible privilege to live where I do.
Vann: That’s so fair. And so, when you got the birth certificate back, so, it just says, ‘Parent One,’ ‘Parent Two,’ no parentheses with the—
Trystan: Correct.
Vann: Okay, so that’s good. And I know because you do so much work within this field, have you experienced people from other states—
Trystan: Lots.
Vann: —That haven’t been able to— ’cause the ‘Parent One/Parent Two’ is not in every state, correct, that’s just—
Trystan: The ‘Parent One’—yes, that’s not in every state. Sometimes people are able to just like, hack the system? Again, because it’s not like it’s a law. It’s some policy, some rule. Nobody voted on this or anything. So sometimes, even if someone gives birth, they’re able to put themself down as the father, and if their wife is the mother— but sometimes the hospitals are weird about it, other times it’s not possible, it completely depends on the state. Sometimes it depends on the literal midwife who’s signing the birth certificate, or the OBGYN if you had a surgical birth. It seems pretty random in a lot of ways, and that— that sucks. And there doesn’t seem to be, or I’ve never heard of a national concerned organized effort to fix that in all fifty states. And I wish there was.
Vann: Maybe that’s something I have to do in the future! Maybe I’ll have to go fix that or something!
Trystan: I mean, of the top three things that keep me up at night; that is not one of them.
Vann: That’s fair! That’s fair.
Trystan: Maybe in like, the top ten.
Vann: Okay.
Trystan: Maybe it’s like, number nine.
Vann: Okay.
Trystan: So. Yeah.
Vann: We’ll get through the list! We’ll get there eventually [laughs]
Trystan: Yeah, yeah.
Vann: Yeah. Okay. Next question, if you could change one thing about the medical system in order to help transmasculine individuals be more included within reproductive health care, what would it be?
Trystan: So, I don’t think about it as one thing, I think about it as a triangle of change. When I think about the different locusts of power, one of them is the medical system, and the one thing I would change is that it’s more trans inclusive. Right? So more providers are fluent in gender-neutral pronouns, or are able to look at what they perceive someone’s gender is and use a different pronouns than their brains are maybe connecting there, and that they’re making more resources for trans folks so we don’t have to play the pronoun switch-around when we’re reading articles or filling out forms or whatever. But then there’s also another power source where things can change and that is in the alternative or natural birth movement that is at-home midwives, it is doulas, it is prenatal chiropractors and massage therapists. People who do acupuncture, acupressure, Chinese traditional medicine. Like, they need to get their shit together, too! Both in terms of inclusion— so being able to do the same things as doctors— but also in making sure whatever they are recommending is in alignment with evidence-based practices. That they’re gonna work for a trans body, ’cause not everything does. Our bodies are different in some ways. And then the third locust of control or power that I want to see more change is in trans communities ourselves. That we are doing a better job of educating ourselves and each other in creating systems so that there’s peak education at all levels. So if you’re a trans person, you go to a doctor and they advise something and say something and you can be like, “No, that’s not true, and here’s why.” [Laughs] Right? That doctors and certified nurse-midwives, and everyone else in the formal medical system are more trans-inclusive, and that alternative practice nurses are trans-inclusive and evidence-based. So it’s, for me, those are the three faces of power where there needs to be work to move things forward.
Vann: That makes sense. A question about your three point diagram— I love that you really tried to focus on different areas that all kind of connect— but do you feel, from what I’ve heard in the trans community from other individuals, do you feel like the community is sort of the best source of knowledge? Like, do you feel—
Trystan: No.
Vann: No? Okay. [Laughs] What is your opinion on it, if you wanna speak—
Trystan: Yeah, yeah! This is where I really struggle because other kinds of providers, whether they operate withinside formal medical structures or not, they will understand that one person’s experience is not data. And I think the average person, not the average trans person, but just the average person person, doesn’t understand that just because your friend or you did something, that that does not mean that that’s what you should recommend to all trans people. And that’s why I have such a focus on community education, because I think we’re so used to operating outside of formal medical structures who really haven’t cared about us very much, and in some cases still don’t, that that’s where a ton of misinformation starts to go around. So, I see online, one transgender woman, for example, will say “Well, I was able to get my partner pregnant after HRT, so you can just go on HRT and it’ll probably be fine.” No! You are in the minority, if that’s the case. And what the data shows us is that at least half of transwomen or other assigned male at birth people who go on HRT completely lose their fertility forever. Forever. So that’s really bad advice! It’s really bad advice. So, no! I do not recommend that trans people ask other random trans people. That’s why I’m trying to get these other systems in place so trans people can feel safe and affirmed getting actual, solid information. Because what’s happening at the community level right now, which I understand, you don’t know. But, there isn’t that understanding that, well— this is what I call anecdata [sic], like, one person’s story. It’s an anecdote that you’re masking as data. Not the same thing.
Vann: That’s totally fair. That makes a lot of sense, I just definitely feel like a lot of people have had that big community mindset for so long. Like you said, because of the exclusion, and they’re like, “All we have is each other, we have to help each other.” And I see what you’re saying, though, especially with heuristics and the way people’s brains work, they don’t conceptualize outside of other experiences near them. They don’t think about big data schemes, or the actual statistics of things. They’re just like, “Oh, I know this person! And they did it, so I’m fine, right?”
Trystan: And to be fair, a lot of medical practitioners don’t know the newest data either. But at least they have the intellectual understanding that you have to look at a data set of like, a hundred people, and then you can draw some conclusions. Not one or two outliers. Yeah!
Vann: That makes sense, thank you for speaking to that. Okay, so, next question! How did the people in your life react when you told them you were pregnant?
Trystan: Yeah, I mean it depends on the person. My boss at the time pretended to be excited for me, but I think was stressed because she didn’t want to lose me for the amount of time that I would need to take off for postpartum and all of that. I told my mother via email because she doesn’t actually believe in anyone having kids. You know, she’s like, “There are just so many kids on this planet. There’s not really any need to make anymore, there’s so many kids who need loving, caring homes.” So like, just intellectually, ideologically, she’s kind of opposed to it. So I told her over email that we were trying and I told her over email because she also doesn’t like being put on the spot, to have an emotional reaction in alignment— you know, like, that’s very overwhelming for her. And so that’s why I told her over email, I said like, “Look, I don’t want you to feel like you have to pretend like you have to be super excited, or any of that,” and like, “I don’t expect anything from you, don’t worry. You know, other than to be the great grandma you already are to our other kids to this new kid that’s coming.” And she wrote back, and just said like, something really offensive. Like, “I understand your desire to have kids, after all, why should idiots be the only ones who have children.” And just something horrible, you know what I mean? I’m just like, mom, that’s— [Laughing] She’s just— you know— why not? Like, “Okay, mom. Thank you so much.” But, I did share in that email that I had a pregnancy loss, and she was really supportive in that way as well, by sharing her own miscarriage experience from before I was conceived. So that was really lovely. And then my dad was the most excited, just because he loves babies, he loves pregnancy. When they would come down to visit, it was just so sweet. A lot of people talk about, “Oh my god, do not touch my pregnant belly,” you know? But I think because I’m a man, and maybe because I have more people in my life who are cool, nobody did, you know what I mean? ‘Cause they were like, “Oh, I know that’s offensive,” or whatever, but my dad was so lovely. I remember he came to visit, and he’d give me a hug, and then he would touch my belly, and ’cause he’s a doctor, he’d be like, “Okay. So there’s an elbow right there! I can feel it!” You know, it was just really sweet, it just never occurred to him that it would be, I don’t know, that my pregnancy would be any different than any of his other kids’ pregnancies. So, yeah! It was pretty wonderful. Some people were like, too involved, too much advice. Other people it was like, “I need some advice!” So yeah! It was okay!
Vann: Was there anyone that you never came out to? Or chose actively not to come out to, or was it pretty open game in terms of your outness?
Trystan: Yeah! I mean, there’s a really great study where they talk about, sort of like, the three filters of safety that trans people have to navigate, and that is like support around your pregnancy, support around your identity, and then— what’s the third one? I think it is like physical safety. The idea being that you can have two, but never three. So for me I chose support around my pregnancy— so not being stealth— and support around my identity. So, being out about being trans and being pregnant, which meant that I sacrificed my personal safety. So, I don’t think there was anyone that didn’t know that I was trans and pregnant, and that came at a real cost to me. So some people, they’ll not tell people they’re trans so they can have pregnancy support and be safe. They’ll tell people they’re not pregnant so they can have trans support and be safe. I chose the third option, so, everyone knew and it meant that I was a real target in terms of publicity, mostly online, though. Not so much in person.
Vann: That makes sense. Did you ever have to come out to the people in your children’s lives as well?
Trystan: No, because our pregnancy became public so quickly, relatively unexpectedly, and so I think very quickly all of the parents and my kids’ schools and stuff like that all knew. But, again, it’s the privilege of Portland and looking and sounding the way that we do. If anyone had any weirdness— I think our nextdoor neighbor was weird about it, but it was just awkward. It was just a vibe, like that’s part of the trans superpower, is we can feel when we’re being judged, you know? It’s how we keep ourselves safe. I could feel it, but he got over it, I think. Yeah, but everyone else was really lovely.
Vann: Oh, that’s really great to hear!
Trystan: And he’s weird about lots of things, so I’m not really worried about it!
Vann: So it feels like Portland’s a very safe environment, then? In terms of respect and how people treat you. Have you ever had any sort of negative experience while in Portland, or has it just been mostly positive? Again, you don’t have to share if you don’t want.
Trystan: Yeah, well I mean, the joke that I’ve always made is in Portland, if you see a pregnant man at Starbucks, that’s maybe not even the weirdest thing you’ve seen that day! So, there is a culture of a live and let live, you know, ‘Keep Portland Weird,’ kind of a thing. Honestly, the most negative experiences I’ve actually got were from within the queer community about my birthing choices. So, lots and lots and lots of judgement about am I going to nurse my baby or no, and what could happen to him health-wise if I don’t, none of which was science. You know, things like that. Was I going to have a hospital birth or home birth? Those kinds of things. That was actually the most negative experience I had was from the left and not the right. So again, people never to cease to amaze, do they?
Vann: No, I was gonna say I wish I could say I was surprised, but it does seem like there’s a lot of gatekeeping, even within our ‘totally respectful and progressive world,’ but whatever. I’m glad that you’ve had good experiences for the most part. It seems like it’s like a nice place to live, I might have to check out Portland in the future! [Laughs]
Trystan: I mean, I really love it. Again, we’re in our bubble of our really supportive friends and family. That bubble’s gotten even more isolated since COVID. But like, a funny story; I became friends with a mom from my littlest’s— that I gave birth to— I became friends with a mom from his preschool. So like, they really like each other, so we’re like, “Yeah, let’s have a playdate!” And she seemed really cool, and I was like, “Oh! We could be like, parent friends,” you know? But then, I did that thing where we hang out maybe like, three or four times. She never asked “How was Leo born?” and I never said. And there’s a time period in which you can say, “Oh, I’m transgender and I gave birth to my kid.” But then once you’re over that hump, it’s just awkward? It’s like, why didn’t I say it earlier? And it was so weird. And so we were gonna hang out on like our fourth or fifth time, and I’m just like, “I have to find a way to tell her today, otherwise it’s gonna be really weird.” And so I was like, “I’m gonna try to work it in the conversation,” and we were talking about the internet. I said “Yeah, I had to leave social media ’cause I was kind of public for a minute.” And she was like, “Oh, what were you public for?” and I said “Oh, I’m transgender and I was pregnant with Leo. I gave birth to him.” And she was like, “Oh, you were pregnant, you gave birth to Leo?” I said, “Yeah.” She said, “Thank God, now we can talk shit about pregnancy together!” And I was like, “Yes, now we can!”
Vann: Oh my God!
Trystan: It was a really good response, and exactly what I would have wanted. You know, that it’s not a big deal, it’s just like, oh cool! One more way that the Venn diagrams of our experiences overlap. It was really lovely, I think that’s a good example of how things have generally gone and how I’d want them to go.
Vann: That’s how I’d want it to go, that is so cool! Oh my gosh. It’s not even just like, “Oh you’re a trans dad,” it’s like, “Oh, now we can bond! Let’s hang out!” That’s so sweet!
Trystan: “Let’s talk more shit about some other things together!” Yes, that’s what I want from a mom friend, you know? That’s like the biggest—
Vann: Yeah!
Trystan: —that’s why it’s really hard for me to find other parent friends, is because people are just so buttoned up about parenting, and they don’t want to— they’re just like, scared to talk about like, how much it sucks sometimes! Or like, you know, whatever.
Vann: They don’t wanna say the wrong thing, or like, offend. Like I feel like there is definitely a fear in talking to people who aren’t trans sometimes. Like you can feel when people are nervous about how to talk to you. Like is that kind of— do you get that?
Trystan: Yeah! Totally, and yeah. So anyways, yes! There’s a couple experiences like that, a couple stories I got that I’m like, “Okay. This is gonna be alright. And I’m glad I’m here!” And yes, you should totally move to Portland and we can hang out!
Vann: [Laughs] I love that, I love to hear! Yeah! So, I guess the next question is, can you describe your experience of postpartum?
Trystan: Yeah. It’s just a wild time, postpartum, and it’s just science. And they call it— in the movement, the like, birth movement— they call it the fourth trimester, because it should be treated as a part of the pregnancy experience with its own unique challenges and benefits and all of that. And in the postpartum period, typically your body just gets flooded with hormones that are designed to make you produce milk and keep your baby alive. They have a lot of negative side effects [laughs] that’s a big part of where postpartum anxiety comes from. Like, when people get really anxious, it’s really just our ancestral brains telling us, “Keep this baby alive.” And so, when I had a little bit of that creep in— and for me it felt like sometimes I would go to sleep at night and all I could see were flashes of horrible things happening to Leo, to the baby, you know? My brain was like, “You drop him when you’re going up the stairs,” “You trip and he falls into traffic,” or like, my lawyer— who I’m now friends with— she calls it the ‘Double Triple Dead.’ Which is like, you don’t just imagine that your child dies, but you imagine you drop them down the stairs and then the door falls open and they fly out the door and they get hit by a car and then there’s a train come by. That’s what it would be. So I had some manageable threads of that, where I’d just sort of go up to the cliff and be like, “Oh, that’s what’s down there.” When people talk about postpartum anxiety, this is what they mean. Just up to the cliff. And I’m pretty good friends with my anxiety, and I’m really good at just saying, “Hey, thank you for keeping me safe. Thank you for keeping my baby safe. This is actually not helpful right now, so I need you to chill out.” But it never went into where I needed to see a mental health provider, but I definitely kept an eye out for it. But for me the most surprising thing was I was so ready for like perinatal mood disorders. I’d literally spoken at the postpartum support international summit, but what I wasn’t prepared for was like, I don’t know, postpartum elation. Which is more of what I had, those chemicals— the bonding chemicals, of just like, I just wanted to be with him all the time. I wanted to look at his little stupid face, that’s it. Like that’s what I wanted to do. And I felt like being his parent in that, in those early days and weeks and months, it was like the first thing I’ve ever been great at without even having to try. And that was just a shock to me, like I just didn’t expect that. I was so used to thinking about the negative things that just— yeah, those precious moments with him and that feeling like I knew exactly what he wanted and what he was feeling, all of that, it was just really really cool. And then watching him bond— ’cause I did not nurse, I didn’t want to, we did all science milk, all formula, which was incredible. I never had to weigh his poopy diapers to be like, “Is he eating?” I didn’t have to worry about mastitis or blocked ducts, or scabbing, or chaffing. I didn’t have to worry about overproduction or underproduction. I could sleep through the night, ’cause then my partner could get up and feed him. And then, everyone else in the family could feed him, too. So like, my mother-in-law could do skin-to-skin, and little tiny baby bottle, and our other kids. So they all got to have that cool ancestral experience of nourishing this little tiny life. Yeah, it was great. It was weird and hard, the healing process. It’s really weird. Like, a whole ass person came out of there.
Vann: Yeah.
Trystan: So that’s weird.
Vann: Yeah.
Trystan: I know they say that’s like, what bodies are made to do that. That’s not true. They happen to do that. But, our bodies are also made to get cancer, and get Alzheimer’s, and wisdom teeth come in in weird ways! I mean, our bodies do all kinds of weird stuff that we don’t have to accept or feel great about, and I do not accept or feel great about [laughs] postpartum healing. Yeah, but I got through it!
Vann: Yeah.
Trystan: I’ll never do it again! But I got to do it.
Vann: So, this is where you draw the line? No more after this one?
Trystan: Nope. Being pregnant and having a baby is the coolest thing that I will never do again.
Vann: That is so fair! You made a perfect one, why try again? You know?
Trystan: Yeah!
Vann: But, during the postpartum experience, were you able to spend most of your time with your baby? Like, in terms of work and everything, how much time did you get off? Were you really able to have that time that you wanted?
Trystan: Well, when I started at the job, that was only me and one other full-time person. It was a very small non-profit managing a network of nonprofits across the country. So lots of staff, but those were all local staff. It was just me and this one other woman, and she’d never wanted to have kids and she was the first executive director. They basically had created the crappiest policy, which I think was six weeks paid leave. And I don’t know if you’ve ever held a six-week old baby, they’re basically the size of this soda can. They’re still tiny! And, again, it’s just a mark of privilege. I looked at the policy, I was like, “This isn’t good.” The next board meeting, I was presenting about other things, and then I concluded by saying, “And it’s come to my attention that the parental leave policy at this organization is six weeks! I don’t think that’s in alignment with your values. I’m not sure if you all have looked at this recently, but I really encourage you to re-examine the policy. See if there isn’t a chance to update it in alignment with the values of this organization.” And they were like, “Oh my God! Six weeks? That’s B S! Thank you for telling us!” And they updated it, so I did get three months of paid leave. They’re legally required to give an additional three months of unpaid leave, but I could not afford to take a single day of unpaid leave. I worked up until the day that I went into the hospital to give birth. ‘Cause I wanted to— any day I took before giving birth was a day that got shaved off of actually spending time with my baby outside of my body. And then my partner did not get a single day of paid leave off. Not a single day.
Vann: I cannot imagine how you managed. That sounds so stressful!
Trystan: Yeah! Legally everyone gets, whatever, three months of unpaid leave. We could not afford to just go without working. What even is unpaid leave? That’s like getting fired with the promise that we’ll re-hire you again in a few months. Like, I don’t— Yeah. Yeah.
Vann: Well, I’m glad you were able to get at least three months. But, I mean, when you were able to go back to work and all, it wasn’t like, sort of an environment where you were able to take your child I’m guessing? Being like an office.
Trystan: A lot of work I did remotely, so a lot of the work I did from home. But we just switched off, I think, on childcare— I’m even trying to remember. Now it was like, five year ago. What did we even do? I don’t remember! But I think we did— I think we switched off, so I think my partner was with him during the day while the kids were in school, and then I did evenings and then my partner worked. Or maybe my partner was working weekends? Like; Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Like a seventy-two hour shift basically on site. So I had all three of the kids. Yeah, I don’t remember. It’s all a blur.
Vann: Just strugglebussing through, it sounds like.
Trystan: Mhm, yeah.
Vann: Yeah, you hustle! I can really appreciate that, that’s definitely a very stressful time. I’ll go ahead and get into the next question. How do you navigate gender and gender roles in your family? And how do you explain gender or teach about gender to your children, or intend to do so in the future when they’re at a more appropriate age, if not now?
Trystan: Oh yeah, any age is an appropriate age to talk to kids about the world. Whether that’s about gender, or race, or culture. I mean, all of those things. But yeah, I mean, the way we talked about gender with our older kids is the same that we’re talking to him about it now, which is developmentally appropriate. It’s very common for age three to five, as brains are making connections, that kids— many kids, most kids— go into a very black or white way of thinking. So it’s very common, even in trans households, for little kids to be like “No! Boys have short hair and girls have long hair!” But that’s normal, right? So what’s developmentally appropriate is if my ten year old said that, we would sit down and have a serious fucking conversation. ‘Cause that’s offensive. But with a four year old? You don’t do that. You know, you say like, “Well that’s not true! Our friend Liam has long hair and he’s a boy!” You know, you just gently, shame-free, share some real work examples and then proactively, when they’re not bringing it up, to integrate books and conversations and famous people or friends, and like, “Isn’t it cool that blank blank blank.” And then how we’ve handled gender is just— for us, Leo was assigned male at birth, and we gave him the name ‘Leo’ which most people would associate with being masculine. And we’ve made that choice very intentionally after thinking about it. Thinking about what are the different options, and for us it ended up being the right choice. Number one, because we don’t think that there is such a thing as gender-neutral. Choosing to refer to your child as they/them or no pronouns, that’s still a choice that they are just as likely to be pissed off about in a few years as if you had defaulted to something else. You know? For us! For us, for us. So we just decided to call him he, we figured numerically speaking, that was most likely to be what he would feel comfortable with. And knowing that he can change at any time, and he still wears dresses and whatever the heck he decides to wear. So we try to do more like gender-free parenting. But, well, last week was the first day he came home and said, “Oh, some kids at school were teasing me and asking, like, am I a boy or a girl. So I don’t want to wear dresses anymore.” And then that’s the next level of conversation to just say, “Sure, you can wear whatever clothes you want. And, you know, I wonder why they said that?” and “Sometimes you’re gonna want to do things that other people think are silly or that they don’t understand. You get to choose. Do you want to feel comfortable and confident and wear what you want to wear and think it’s cool and know that some kids might say some things? Or do you want to just wear the clothes that you know kids aren’t gonna have a problem with? You get to choose!” And guess what, our twelve-year-old is still making those choices, as is our fourteen-year-old! As am I. [Laughter] So yeah. We just do what feels best for us. Also, we’re lazy. We’re tired. We’re old. The idea of gender policing strangers and how they refer to my kid, I do not have the energy for all of that. That sounds hard. And bless the people who do! Like, yay! Love that for you! I can’t pick every fight anymore, I just can’t.
Vann: I— and again, it’s okay if you don’t want to speak to this— but have your children ever experienced backlash on behalf of being the child of a trans person? Have you experienced any student who has teased or bullied, or a parent who’s teased or—
Trystan: It’s been much more— like, when we told our kids that I was pregnant, our now middle child, or then youngest child, went to school and told all the kids at school that, “Oh, my dad is pregnant,” and like, “I’m gonna have a little brother or sister or sibling.” And the other kids were super excited! And then the next day, the kids came back and were like, “I told my mom that your dad was having a baby, and she said that you are a liar, ’cause boys can’t have babies.” So it’s just stuff like that, you know what I mean? Second-hand stuff. And maybe they do get teased at school and they just don’t tell me about it, or they don’t notice it, I don’t know. But not really. I don’t think— you know, again, we’re in Portland. I think my middle schooler’s closest friends, a lot of them have LGBTQ parents. I think some kids are jealous, you know? Like, “You have two dads? That’s bullshit, I only have one! What the hell?”
Vann: They got cheated! [Laughs]
Trystan: Yeah, and the school tries really hard. Like, maybe too hard. Which I’ll take over the other, you know what I mean? They will come to us and be like, “So next week is Mother’s Day. Here are the twelve ideas that I have for how Leo can feel included.” You know what I mean? So, they try.
Vann: Oh, that is very sweet! A little naïve, but sweet.
Trystan: Yeah. I’ll take it! I’ll take well meaning over anything else.
Vann: Fair. So in terms of any experiences you had relating to your children, it’s been mostly with disbelief rather than outward bullying, it seems. Like, just not knowing.
Trystan: Yeah! And to be honest, I think it’s the opposite— where not necessarily outside but within our family, I feel like, between my partner and I, we have a way to relate in to any gendered experience that our kids have! Like, whether it’s from, “Oh no my voice is changing, what do I do?” or shaving either legs or face, or period/menstruation, dating, having their heartbroken, liking someone who doesn’t like you back, liking someone that likes you back, but like, too much. How to assert yourself and be confident, how to ask for consent, all those things they have to navigate. We’ve been there, done that! We literally have taught the class, or like, literally have written the book. So I think it’s a real gift to have navigated so many gendered spaces between the two of us. Pretty much whatever— our fourteen year old, who is a straight boy, there are some stuff there that we’re like, “Oo, this we don’t know what to do with.” But even like, how to be the kind of person that a girl wants to go on a date with? Bro. We got you.
Vann: [Laughs]
Trystan: We got you! Even though I tried to tell him, “If you don’t shower, no girl’s gonna want to date you,” and he said, “What would you know about getting a girl to date you?” That’s fair! I have not ever dated a girl [Laughs]
Vann: I— the sass! The sass!
Trystan: I know!
Vann: And he’s fourteen?
Trystan: The audacity. Yeah! This is when he was twelve, now he’s obsessive about showering which is great. But yeah.
Vann: I was gonna say, fourteen, I hope he gets on the showering real soon. ‘Cause when he gets into high school, I don’t know if they’ll be as forgiving with that!
Trystan: Yeah.
Vann: Okay. That’s really great to hear! I’m definitely very interested in how trans couples, especially, navigate gender in terms of parenting. I feel like that’s definitely a very underexplored area! So I’m very grateful to hear your experience. And I definitely understand what you’re saying about the choice with using pronouns always going to be a choice. It’s not like a neutral option, there are still associations no matter what you do, right? So, just let them figure it out and tell you, right?
Trystan: Yeah! But again, it’s whatever feels right for any given person. It’s just the judgment that’s been hard, you know? I remember when we posted on— when we had a public social media presence before I shut all of that down— the very first picture of Leo after he was born that we posted to be like, “Welcoming Leo, we’re so excited to meet him, bla bla bla, whatever,” the very first comment was from a trans person that was like, “Why did you choose to gender your child?” And that was just like— that’s the first thing that comes to mind is to judge another trans person’s choices? You know? And someone— like, I worked really hard to put myself out there in a way that was really responsible and that served the community. I answered hundreds of DMs from trans people being like, “Can I nurse my child?” I worked really hard to serve the community, that for a judgemental— you know what I mean? It really broke my heart! And I was really upset! You know? And I really went off on this person that commented, that Biff was like, “Give me your phone” and deleted the whole thread and was like, “Stop this right now.” But yeah, even five years later, it just does something in my tummy. You know? That I’m like, come on y’all! We have to be better, we have to be nicer to each other!
Vann: We’re getting attacks from everyone else in the world. Why are we infighting? What’s it gonna help? What’s it gonna do? What’s it going to accomplish?
Trystan: And! Truly, people have come to be like, “Oh! I would have thought a trans person would not want to assume their baby’s gender. Tell me about that conversation that you guys had.” And like, “Yeah, totally! Yes, I would be happy to have that conversation!” It’s not that I’m embarrassed of my decisions, it’s just the presumption of like, self-hating trans person or something. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard.
Vann: I’m so sorry you went through that, that sounds exhausting. And I very much understand why you chose to remove yourself from being on such a public platform. Because it sounds very stressful!
Trystan: It is. I mean, it comes at a real cost, ’cause I really liked being able to connect with people. I’m an extrovert, especially during COVID, that was my social interaction. But, it’s just not worth it to strengthen these platforms that really, truly make their money on anger and outrage. And I just can’t throw myself onto those gears any longer.
Vann: That’s so fair. Do you feel as though, in real life, people would be a lot less likely to say these things to your face, then— like, does the internet provide people the freedom to express their anger?
Trystan: One hundred percent
Vann: [Laughs]
Trystan: One hundred percent! Part of my job-job, is like, I do conflict resolution. I lean into disagreement, I lean into conflict. I’ve been called out in person, like, a million times. I’m forty! That’s old as hell in trans years! You know? And anytime someone comes to me and says, “Oh you fucked up,” I’m like, “Oh my God. I cannot wait to hear more about how I fucked up and to figure out with you how I can make it right!” You know? Let’s talk about it! But the Molotov cocktail nature of the internet, that’s not something that I am equipped to deal with. And I thought I could. I can’t. I just can’t.
Vann: It’s taxing! That sounds very taxing.
Trystan: Yeah.
Vann: Well, thank you for sharing about that. I really do appreciate hearing your insight. And you’ve already spoken about this earlier, but I wanted to reopen this question of your decision not to chestfeed. Do you want to talk to me about what kind of led to this decision, was there ever a point where you were considering it, was there ever a point where Biff was even considering. ‘Cause I know, you know, depending on your relationship, some people opt to have their partner induce lactation.
Trystan: I mean, Biff was assigned male at birth, and so it would’ve been a lot of work. I mean, trans women can and do nurse, but often that’s done in tandem with their other hormone replacement therapy. So no, Biff had no interest in doing that. And, you know, I think there was a time when I was like, “I don’t know, I guess I’ll try it?” But, to be honest, the cult of breastfeeding pushed me so far away from even wanting to try it. Truly, that people were just so off the rails in a non-evidence based way! I get it, nursing your child worked for you, but don’t tell everybody else who can’t or doesn’t want to do that that they’re bad or wrong. Anything that’s rooted in that level of shame, I’m just like, “Nope! Nope!” And the more I did research on how incredibly well regulated formula is, and the more I thought, “I don’t want,”— and again, no judgment to people who do this, but like— I don’t want to feed my newborn baby a stranger’s body fluid. I just couldn’t get over that. You know? It’s like, if you are gonna get an infusion at the hospital, that blood has been tested! No one’s testing breast milk! I don’t know these people! [Laughs] I don’t know them! And I’m not trying to be a week postpartum driving around Portland picking up bags of breast milk for the freezer. And once it’s been frozen and thawed, what’s even left? That nutritionally— that formula isn’t doing? It was just so much. It was like, “Oh my God, there’s a solution to this that’s easy.” It was expensive, so often people say breastfeeding is free, and I’m like, “Only if you don’t value your own time!” Like, how sexist is that? It’s a lot of work! Even if everything goes well, it’s a lot of work! So I’m just like, nope! Drying up the supply, that was hard, and there is not a good protocol for that.
Vann: Oh?
Trystan: So there isn’t a medication that you can take to dry up your supply. So that part was really stupid and sucked. But after maybe like a week, my supply dried up and, again, I cannot say enough about us— for us, for my family, it was such a smart choice. I really needed time to sleep. I had not slept because of the pain for at least the last two weeks of the pregnancy. So to be able to sleep and have Biff get up and do that, love it!
Vann: Yeah! And also, you only have three months to be with your child. I couldn’t imagine working and then also having to be so concerned about the supply and when you’d be able to get it next, or like, just going through all those hoops to just get milk seems like just so much work. [Laughs]
Trystan: If other people wanna do that, great! Love that for them! For me, I just, I couldn’t, and I really was scared about the postpartum period. I was scared that I would grow to resent this baby that needed me every two hours, twenty-four hours a day. You know? I was really worried about that. You know, I know how much I need sleep and what I turn into when I don’t get enough sleep. I was worried about that, too. So that was the right choice for us. And it should be de-stigmatized! I think much much, much much more. Particularly in the natural birth movement.
Vann: I agree! I agree fully. And, um, I did have a question though—
Trystan: Yeah?
Vann: About, you said that you did dry up your supply. So you were producing during—
Trystan: Oh yeah! I hadn’t had top surgery.
Vann: Oh! Okay!
Trystan: Yeah, I had never needed that. I’d always been really small. And so I just never really needed it. So, yeah! I totally was producing milk, but you know, basically if you do nothing with it, then it eventually dried up. ‘Cause it’s a little bit of a supply and demand thing after a little bit.
Vann: Okay, so you never had top surgery then?
Trystan: I did after.
Vann: Oh!
Trystan: Well, yeah, ’cause the pregnancy, and then that little bit of milk production, it changed the shape of my body. And so, yeah, I did have top surgery, I think maybe when Leo was two or three. Yeah.
Vann: Okay! That’s really cool! Did he, as a child, notice? Or did he have any questions about the surgery process? Or did he conceptualize that— does that make sense?
Trystan: I think so? I don’t think so, I don’t think any of my kids did. It’s just like, “Well, pregnancy changes your body, and daddy felt really comfortable with his body before, but those changes made him feel less comfortable about his body. So he’s gonna have a surgery, and then he’ll feel comfortable with his body again!” I think that’s how we put it.
Vann: Okay!
Trystan: And I did not want— hell, I don’t know if you’ve seen pictures from post top surgery, but it’s nasty. So, I was very strict about, like, Biff can come up. The kids cannot come up. It’s just a— you know, there’s like, lymphic fluid, and lymphatic fluid, and bruises and— no. I said, “I do not want them to get traumatized by all this stuff!” [Laughs] They’re too little for that.
Vann: That’s fair! Okay—
Trystan: Yeah.
Vann: That’s really interesting! Thank you for sharing that. That’s really cool!
Trystan: Sure!
Vann: I think we only have a couple questions left, so we’re wrappin’ this up! How did you feel about pregnancy and parenthood before transitioning versus while on HRT?
Trystan: Well, I did not want to ever have kids. Ever, ever, ever. Before or after transitioning. I was not interested at all. And I’ve had friends who had kids the last twenty years, my trans friends have had babies. But I just thought, “Cool for them! Never for me.” It really wasn’t until I met my partner that I was like, “Oh.” You know, that this is something that I could do and that I would want to do. So, yeah!
Vann: Yeah! And so, you started transitioning— for some background, what age were you started transitioning? Before—
Trystan: Twenty! Oh, yeah, way— like twenty years ago! I know! I’m old as hell! I’m a tranpa [sic]!
Vann: You are! In the best way possible! We love trans elders!
Trystan: Yeah! Oh, God! Oh, God!
Vann: [Laughs] Or, a trans middle-age—
Trystan: No, it’s fine, you said it! It’s too late! God!
Vann: I’m sorry! [Laughs] You said tranpa! Is that not?
Trystan: I know! Oh God, it’s fine, it’s fine. It is a blessing to have lived to be this old. It really is. I never thought I’d live past eighteen. So every year, I’m just, like, “Hey!”
Vann: That’s what I say! I remember when I transitioned, I was sixteen. And I used to say, “Yeah. I don’t think I would have made it to eighteen if I couldn’t have transitioned.” It’s just— it’s too unthinkable. To have to live your life as something you’re not. So, you transitioned at twenty, and when did you meet Biff, then?
Trystan: Oh my God! I was twenty-eight. Biff was twenty-five, I think? So I’ve been— I was very confident in my identity, and all of that, yeah.
Vann: So it took, like, about eight years between transitioning before you actually started considering parenthood, then?
Trystan: Yeah.
Vann: That’s so cool, I— ’cause some people really never think it’s gonna happen, and then, it just happens. [Laughs]
Trystan: Totally.
Vann: Yeah.
Trystan: I would say, anecdotally, most of the trans people I’ve met who’ve given birth have always known they wanted to have kids. That has been a core part of their identity. And I think that that makes sense, right? You have to want it real bad to willingly enter into this process, which is so gendered in a certain way by our culture. That it’s medically a little bit difficult if you’ve been on T, and then you have to stop, yeah. But not me. It was just Biff. I just wanted to have Biff’s baby.
Vann: That is very sweet. I almost wish I could interview Biff now. ‘Cause now I’m like, “I wanna hear Biff’s side of the story!” [Laughs]
Trystan: Biff’s side of the story is very simple. They never wanted to be a biological parent, they only did it because I really wanted to do it. The end!
Vann: [Laughs] Oh, you convinced them! You earned their trust enough and then you hit ’em with the big question!
Trystan: Yup! Even that, it was many months of them meditating on it.
Vann: [Laughs] It was definitely an informed decision. That’s really great! And then, this is the last thing, what is the best thing about being a parent?
Trystan: Oh God. That’s too big. I’ll just say what’s the best thing about being a parent right now.
Vann: Okay.
Trystan: Right now— last night, Biff and I and Leo, we have a little hot tub kind of a situation outside of our house ’cause it gets cold here in Oregon. And we were all just sitting in the hot tub, no cellphones, no screens, and Leo was doing— like, forcing us to choose who was gonna catch him when he jumps into our arms. It was just really pure and sweet, and they’re so fuckin’ present! You know, he just doesn’t worry about things. And that’s— you know, it’s just, it’s really— yeah. It’s really cool. Just to be trusted. And trusted! To be trusted. You know, he knew when he jumps into our arms, we will catch him. And there’s something really pure and powerful about that.
Vann: Oh, I love that. That is very sweet. And, so, going forward, do you have any concerns about Leo? And his future? Do you feel like—
Trystan: No, weirdly, it’s so funny, I was talking to Biff about this the other day. Weirdly, he is the most privileged of all three of our children. Even though he’s the one with a gay parent, and a gay transgender parent, who had a very public pregnancy which he still doesn’t know about. He was wanted and planned for. He was loved. There’s been no abuse in his home. He’s been fully supported. He has this whole community of people around him of people that love him. You know, and our older kids didn’t have that in the beginning. And so it’ll be interesting to see how, you know— I’m much more concerned about their long term happiness and life satisfaction because they had early experiences of abuse and neglect. It’s them that I spend, like, ninty percent of my time focused on, worrying about, and supporting, and leveraging resources, and paying attention to. And I’m like, “Eh, Leo will be fine.” [Laughs] He’s fine!
Vann: He’s the angel child, he’s got everything going for him!
Trystan: I mean, truly, to be loved and wanted are— they really matter. And whether that’s from your first family, or from the people who welcome you in because others couldn’t. Like, it really really matters. So, yeah. As you know!
Vann: Yes, as we know. That was lovely. Thank you so much for sharing. I really really appreciate your insight, and just being so willing to share with me and tell me about your experience. It’s very invaluable, and I hope that this will be able to help people in the future. [Laughs]
Trystan: I hope so too! Good luck with your project!
Vann: Thank you!
[End Interview]